Developers Begin to Weigh in on the Power Gap Between the Xbox Series X and PlayStation 5 : SSD will not Save PS5

https://seasonedgaming.com/2020/03/26/developers-begin-to-weigh-in-on-the-power-gap-between-the-xbox-series-x-and-playstation-5/

Chris Grannell is a developer who spent 15 years working on PlayStation games for both the PS3 and PS4 including Killzone 2 and Wipeout. He stated the following:

I’ve chatted to a few devs and they have confirmed the power difference is quite staggering. However they have said it doesn’t mean you can’t make good games on the PS5.

When asked about the speed of the PS5’s SSD having an impact, he later followed with:

As blistering as the PS5 SSD is it’s not going to make up for the loss of CU’sand variance in clock speeds on the CPU and GPU. It’s also nowhere near GDDR6 levels so it can’t reliably be used as virtual memory.

In the latest episode of Xbox Unlocked, IGN’s weekly Xbox show, the following quote was given from an unnamed developer which echoed the CU count being a large factor:

The in-house tools which are Unix based for Sony versus Microsoft with DirectX12 will dictate how efficient their use of the hardware is. With that said, Mark Cerny pulled a quick one on the general publicwith the way he delivered the Sony PS5’s specs. First off, we have no clue what the sustained numbers of the GPU and CPU are. However judging by the leak that did nail the Series X numbers, they are significantly lower. That said, one of the things you and most general users skip over is how the CU count is a huge drawback on all modern executions such as ray tracing, variable rate shading, VFFR, etc…meaning the CU cores are tied to the ray tracing cores. So with that said, the PS5 has 40% or so fewer CUs.

He continued:

Now to Microsoft’s biggest advantage, their speed numbers are locked and are not boost numbers which with software updates they might be able to push as there’s always headroom.

Grant Kot is a developer who is currently working on his first console game. He says that the combination of DirectX12 Ultimate and console power drove his direction to the Xbox ecosystem:

As a single developer who has not put out any previous console games, I am choosing to focus on the DirectX ecosystem, which supports XBox, PC and cloud. XBox being more powerful in compute is also a factor.

As we’ve also heard, some developers have commented on the PS5 having unique features that will be better understood in time. While we certainly believe that to be true, these quotes have come from Sony development studios and thus we’re focusing on independent developers experiences.

Our Take

From all accounts, the Series X is absolutely taking the power crown into next-generation as we had assumed for a long time now. Regardless, it goes without saying that we are extremely excited for both the Xbox and PlayStation 5 and we can’t wait to see more from developers on both consoles as they get closer to launch.

The Series X is faster and the PS5 is going to be more than fine. Just a heads up for the folks who think they need to damage control when they truly don't need to. Its the freaking PS5.

@Pedro:

Right?

I haven't really kept up with these next gen boxes beyond the most surface level stuff, but seeing the usual suspects lose their shit over it.. ok, it's to be expected, but still absurd.

Third parties aren't about to abandon PS5 over a power deficit. First party isn't gonna vanish. Multiplats will look and run just fine. And even for stupid shit like those who play sales, PS5 should do fine barring some horrendous series of fuckups on Sonys part.

Oh no, gonna come up short on pixels and frames in DF comparisons!

Which if it matters that much, just buy both consoles, or get a PC.

Now can we stop with this magic SSD nonsense. Just enjoy your PS5 or Xbox. Microsoft was confident all year long not because they knew what Sony had, rather they knew what they had. I remember telling someone on here that they have some of the best Engineers in the world.

Exactly. The people who are losing their shit is the people who made a YUUGE deal about the PS4 vs Xbox One graphics difference. Now that they are on the other side of the stick they created their own version of "Xbox Power of Cloud" with "POWER OF THE SSD". The shit is sad and hilarious at the same time.

As you have said, games are still going to made for the PS5 and first party games aren't going to vanish, so wtf is up with the brain dead damage control for a very select bunch of Sony fannies?

inb4 Box.

this should be interesting

At the beginning of this generation, we've heard many developers saying that the inferior hardware of the original Xbone won't make much of a difference. It was all bullshit. It made a huge difference, and in 2020, if you're still using the original xbone/xboneS, you're literally in disadvantage (blurry af games, poorest draw distance, shitty frames, all of which destroys your experience for multiplayer).

Devs that will praise the PS4 for the power gap are just damage controlling for Sony. The difference is there, and its bigger than xbone vs ps5. Next gen will be brutal for Sony, but not early on. I expect to see large differences in performance 1-2 years after launch.

@Pedro: The exact opposite is also true, people who said the power difference between the Xone and PS4 didnt matter are now doing a full 180 on that. Its both funny and sad on all fronts no matter your prefered piece of plastic.

@vfighter: Who are these people you speak of?

Wait for it....he hasn't seen it yet.

@Pedro: @ConanTheStoner: Would you 2 kindly STFU, some of us are waiting for the usual suspects to turn up and entertain us ALL, don't you want to be entertained? if not then don't try and spoil it for the rest of us :(

@vfighter: boxrekt has been on a nerd rampage

@i_p_daily:

If all it took was a couple of reasonable posts to calm old Boxys tits, I'd get you.

But if anything, we're just fuel for the fire. Watch dude come in here calling me a lem even though I haven't owned an Xbox since mid last gen lol.

What @Pedro said. The XSX is more powerful than the PS5, maybe even a lot more. Doesn't matter. The PS5 is going to be awesome. I know certain cows (not naming names) are having trouble accepting the power difference, but you guys need to just let it go. Play what you want, on what system you want. You'll have fun if you just let go of pointless arguments.

Boxrekt's brain is going to explode when writing his rebuttal to this

@Chutebox: I can't deny that, but when isn't he lol.

@ttboy:

I see another lemming just came out of its tomb.

Isn't this tdkmilksy alter ego?

Yup and yup haha

I read your comment wrong though vf. So nevermind!

Probably saw it right away and still typing.

While I wait, just reminiscing on console wars past.

Don't get me wrong tho, loved my PS3 still.

Exactofuckingmundo. :)

Besides FFVII is going to be out in soon followed by Ghost of Tsushima, followed by Last of Us 2. No interest in any but that is what and why people love their PlayStation.

Back from the Dead. But I'm not milksy lol.

I have 42 YouTube videos that prove the op is a dirty liar. SW tech experts are frauds.

Lol. The anticipation is building. This should be good.

Thankfully the PS5 will be able to load its potato mode graphics really fast.

Just saving my guy the trouble.

There is no magic the SSD will simply make the PS5 a much faster system,if a 17%GPU inprovement is stagerring imaging a 120% gap in SDD speed.

The ssd will not close the gap in performance,but considering that the xbox one X has 45% gap in performance more ram and more bandwidth and nothing happen but a difference in frame and resolution ala PS4 and xbox one style in 2013,i say this gen power will be even less relevant after all this machines are not targetting 720p which can give you a blur image vs other higher resoltions.

The xbox series X didn't turn out like it is because MS has the best engineers it turn out like that because MS target a specific BOM and price range,which probably will be different to sony's target,this is the same company who built the xbox one,and it wasn't that they screw up as engineers they simply have a target a plan and fallow that.

I asked because last time you were corner on it you VANISH yet he stayed..lol

Either way is nice to have more lemmings here,i wish i could get blackace tho he would surely would be pulling some great theories now.

On XSX vs PS5's power difference,

1. TFLOPS RDNA2 difference is 1.867 TFLOPS (~2.483 TFLOPS GCN effective) and PS4 has 1.84 TFLOPS GCN which can drive 1920x1080 pixels (1/4 of 4K resolution). XSX has more than PS4+35% power difference over PS5.

2. RDNA TMU is twice as wide when compared to GCN TMU. When 1825Mhz vs 800 Mhz clock speed difference is factored in, XSX has about four times PS4 TMU processing difference over PS5.

Summary

1. PS4+35% TFLOPS difference between XSX and PS5

2. 4X PS4 TMU difference between XSX and PS5

Yes, they really wet the bed on the Xbox One.. To be fair they were handcuffed by the upper management pushing Kinect. MS has built 3 out 4 strong systems ...

XBox OG

360

Xbox One X

Xbox SeriesX

@boxrekt IS NOT GONNA LIKE THIS!!!! 😂😂😂

@ronvalencia: Wasnt Xbox One X 1.8 teraflops faster the ps4 Pro? In other words a whole ps4 faster? So this difference is about the same? (% is actually less this time around right?)

@ConanTheStoner: Stop taking other people's jobs!

With all the theaters closed lately, sitting here waiting for box to show up is kinda like waiting for the movie to start.

😂😂😂

@subspecies: I finished my sno-caps :-(

Yeah, rough times. This is what quarantine has done to us lol.

Might as well play some games until he shows.

Would be cool if Boxy was just some character he made up for this forum. Like dudes sitting there reading all this, laughing with us.

Doubt.

I'm partial to these, myself ;)

IF PS4's 1.84 TFLOPS delivers 1920x1080 at 30 hz or 60 hz

The following effective TFLOPS conversion is based on RDNA running in GCN legacy mode with RDNA has 8 cycles instruction retirement vs GCN has 12 cycles instruction retirement

XSX GPU's 12.147 TFLOPS RDNA is effectively 16.16 TFLOPS GCN**

PS5 GPU's 10.275 TFLOPS RDNA is effectively 13.66 TFLOPS GCN** (max boost)

PS5 GPU's 10,173TFLOPS RDNA is effectively 13,530 TFLOPS GCN** (1% clock speed reduction)

**Another topic on RDNA vs GCN TFLOPS, RDNA TMU has double-width when compared to GCN TMU.

XSX GPU can drive 8.78 x 1920x1080 and 17.56‬X TMU power** (no major problems with improved texture assets).

PS5 GPU can drive 7.42 x 1920x1080 and 14.84‬X TMU power** (no major problems with improved texture assets)

PS; TMU relates to RT cores.

You need 4 x 1920x1080 for 3840x2160 (4K) resolution which is 7.36 TFLOPS GCN.

If 1920x1080 has 30hz ~= 1.84 TFLOPS GCN then

4K at 30 Hz version would need 7.36 TFLOPS GCN.

4K at 60 Hz version would need 14.72 TFLOPS GCN.

X1X GPU can drive 4K 60 Hz + 9% extra margin e.g. 65.4 Hz.

PS5 GPU can drive 4K 55 Hz and no extra margin running at max boost.

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The following effective TFLOPS conversion is based on RDNA running in native RDNA mode with 7 cycles instruction retirement vs GCN has 12 cycles instruction retirement

XSX GPU's 12.147 TFLOPS RDNA is effectively 17.20 TFLOPS GCN**

PS5 GPU's 10.275 TFLOPS RDNA is effectively 14.55 TFLOPS GCN** (max boost)

PS5 GPU's 10,173TFLOPS RDNA is effectively 14.40 TFLOPS GCN** (1% clock speed reduction)

X1X GPU can drive 4K 60 Hz + 16.8% extra margin e.g. 70 Hz.

PS5 GPU can drive 4K 59 Hz and no extra margin at max boost.

PS5 GPU can drive 4K 58.7 Hz and no extra margin at 1% GPU clock speed reduction.

I haven't applied GPU resource conservation features such as Mesh Shaders, Variable-Rate Shading, Rasterizer Ordered Views, Conservative Rasterization, and Sampling Feedback.

Memory bandwidth is not factored in.

Example of XSX vs X1X

From https://www.tomsguide.com/news/first-xbox-series-x-gameplay-may-be-revealed-today-with-forza-motorsport-8

Forza Horizon 4

The demo show will reportedly continue with Forza Horizon 4. Here we will see how variable rate shading works on the Xbox Series X. VRS is a technique that allows the GPU to boost detail and quality in complex parts of the images while lowering its power needs in simpler areas.

The reasoning behind VRS is that our eyes and brain can’t focus on the totality of an image. If you are paying attention to the screen, your eyes will be focused on where the action is, which typically is the more complex part of the image. The graphics engine doesn’t have to spend so much power on the less complex, peripherals parts of the image. That results in power optimization that allows to boost detail even more or increase the frame rate.

The results? Playground Games — who develop the Forza Horizon series — added VRS to Forza Horizon 4 when it received its Xbox Series X development kits in December. That increased the frame rate in the game by a whooping 32% with “no optimizations, just using VRS in parts with motion blur.” According to the redditor, “VRS changes the way they design games (VRS as motion blur replacement),” pointing out that the” lead engineer says they can reach 4K/120 today on XSX thanks to RDNA2 architecture and the combined effort of AMD and Microsoft.”

Yeah, 4K and 120 frames per second.

Swapping FH4's blur motion into VRS version enables XSX's FH4 to reach 120 fps 4K.

If VRS improves the frame rate by 32 percent which yields 120 fps 4K, then non-VRS version would be 81.6 fps 4K, hence XSX GPU is about 2.72 times better than X1X GPU's FH4 results.

The "no optimizations" could mean running on GCN legacy mode (wave64 instructions) instead of RDNA mode (wave32 instructions)

When running on GCN legacy mode, XSX GPU is effectively ~16.3 TFLOPS GCN.

XSX's 560 GB/s memory bandwidth helps with TFLOPS scaling.

--

My TFLOPS conversion between RDNA vs GCN is based on the following AMD RDNA whitepaper

Read https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/ctfbem/amd_rdna_whitepaper/

Figure 3 (bottom of page 5) shows 4 lines of shader instructions being executed in GCN, vs RDNA in Wave32 or “backwards compatible” Wave64.

Vega takes 12 cycles to complete the instruction on a GCN SIMD. Navi in Wave32 (optimized code) completes it in 7 cycles.

In backwards compatible (optimized for GCN Wave64) mode, Navi completes it in 8 cycles.

So even on code optimized for GCN, Navi is faster., but more performance can be extracted by optimizing for Navi.

Lower latency, and no wasted clock cycles.

PS; I don't believe PS5 GPU has 9.2 TFLOPS.

Texture reads from 8-to-9 GB/s compressed BW SSD is many magnitudes slower than texture reads from 448 GB/s or 560 GB/s GDDR6 memory pool. LOL

No one is stopping PS5 devs turning their PS5's RX-6700 GPU into Intel IGP with 128-bit DDR2-533 speeds.

I would welcome them into a technical debate in GS's SW forum.

@ronvalencia: I'm sure you would, but that was just a joke.

Power doesn't mean anything if there is no games to play. Sony usually has better games historically so I would go with them regardless

What's this? TC been here since 2003 with only 528 posts? Charming.

@subspecies: "I know certain cows (not naming names) are having trouble accepting the power difference"

Dont be bashful, point them out.

@PSP107: What can I say, I'm a little shy. Guess I need to come out of.....my 'box'.

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;)

@ronvalencia: when they have higher base graphics, the differences will be even smaller than Pro and X, in other words a few extra pixels and nothing more. Don't go expecting better assets lmao. Have the power crown all you want, but let's not forget Sony will have the better software and larger install base, more online players, etc.

@PSP107: could care less about "power difference" when we know the differences will be negligible plus Sony will have more online players and better software.