At what month should non-mandatory abortions be stopped?

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BossPerson

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#1 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts

So for the pro-choice people out there, do any of you still think there's a limit at which non-mandatory abortions (abortions that arent required to save the mother's life) should be stopped? 

Part of me feels that abortions become more reprehensible the closer you get to birth, after 5 months or so

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Pirate700

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#2 Pirate700
Member since 2008 • 46465 Posts

I'd say after the first 3 months.

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#3 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts

I mean if it takes longer than a couple months to decide whether or not to have an abortion, you have issues. 

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Pirate700

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#4 Pirate700
Member since 2008 • 46465 Posts

I mean if it takes longer than a couple months to decide whether or not to have an abortion, you have issues. 

BossPerson

That's my take on it.

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ghoklebutter

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#5 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts
Abortions should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason.
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deactivated-5e9044657a310

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#6 deactivated-5e9044657a310
Member since 2005 • 8136 Posts
72 hours. Except for Rape or Medical abortions to save the mother, I don't personally believe in abortion. But it's not really my place to decide for other people. However I can say, if you're too stupid to spread your legs, or play hey diddle with your little fiddle and not be smart about it, than you should face the consequences.
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ghoklebutter

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#7 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts

I mean if it takes longer than a couple months to decide whether or not to have an abortion, you have issues. 

BossPerson
Or it could just be the case that the mother consented to the pregnancy at first and then changed her mind. Why and when she decides to have an abortion is none of our business.
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#8 deactivated-5e9044657a310
Member since 2005 • 8136 Posts
Pregnancy is INCREDIBLY easy to avoid.
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chessmaster1989

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#9 chessmaster1989
Member since 2008 • 30203 Posts
Something like 3-5 months.
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#10 Pirate700
Member since 2008 • 46465 Posts

[QUOTE="BossPerson"]

I mean if it takes longer than a couple months to decide whether or not to have an abortion, you have issues. 

ghoklebutter

Or it could just be the case that the mother consented to the pregnancy at first and then changed her mind. Why and when she decides to have an abortion is none of our business.

I'm gonna have to disagree here. I fully support abortion, but I think there has to be some limits. If a women lets it get to the point where it has a brain and a beating heart, I think it's crossed the point of no return.

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ghoklebutter

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#11 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts
Pregnancy is INCREDIBLY easy to avoid.Nuck81
Something no pro-choicer denies. After all, they are concerned with the termination of pregnancies, not just avoiding them.
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#12 JML897
Member since 2004 • 33134 Posts
Abortions should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason.ghoklebutter
Can't say I agree with this. In the third trimester the only reason abortion should be legal is if the woman's health is at risk
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#13 Zeviander
Member since 2011 • 9503 Posts
Abortions should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason.ghoklebutter
This. Every stage of development in utero can have it's own complications and place the life of the mother at risk.
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#14 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts
[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]Abortions should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason.JML897
Can't say I agree with this. In the third trimester the only reason abortion should be legal is if the woman's health is at risk

Why do you think so?
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#15 DrTrafalgarLaw
Member since 2011 • 4487 Posts

Pregnancy is INCREDIBLY easy to avoid.Nuck81
A lot can happen. The woman can forget to take her contraceptives. The condom can leak. It can be as a result of rape. You can be drunk while having coitus. Anything can happen. Legally, 24 weeks is the limit at which abortion still can take place. Unless there is a medical indication, an abortion after 24 weeks of gestation is forbidden by law.

You obviously do not even have carnal knowledge about women, as women only find out they're pregnant usually after 2 weeks of having sex. 72 hours is ridicilous.
Pregnancy is easy to avoid -use contraceptives or no sex at all- but I'm sure you understand the latter is not very feasible in this day of age. The former does not guarantue a 100% non-pregnancy rate. In the case a pregnancy DOES slip through, abortion can be a solution.

But trust me, abortion can lead to very emotional moments and it's not very pleasant thing to do. You're making it sound like every woman is lining up to get their child aborted.

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#16 Pirate700
Member since 2008 • 46465 Posts

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]Abortions should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason.Zeviander
This. Every stage of development in utero can have it's own complications and place the life of the mother at risk.

What does that have to do with this thread? The TC said outside of mandatory abortions.

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ghoklebutter

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#17 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts
[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]Abortions should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason.Zeviander
This. Every stage of development in utero can have it's own complications and place the life of the mother at risk.

And then there's the whole thing about abortion being an exercise of bodily autonomy that shouldn't be arbitrarily restricted.
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Zeviander

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#18 Zeviander
Member since 2011 • 9503 Posts
Can't say I agree with this. In the third trimester the only reason abortion should be legal is if the woman's health is at riskJML897
Would you (and anyone who assents to your position) be willing to care for the unwanted child? Or foot the bill to provide it with 18 years of care?
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#19 lostrib
Member since 2009 • 49999 Posts

Abortions should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason.ghoklebutter

So at 9 months?

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#20 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts
Abortions should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason.ghoklebutter
lol, 2 days before projected birth? you make liberals look bad
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#21 Pirate700
Member since 2008 • 46465 Posts

[QUOTE="JML897"]Can't say I agree with this. In the third trimester the only reason abortion should be legal is if the woman's health is at riskZeviander
Would you (and anyone who assents to your position) be willing to care for the unwanted child? Or foot the bill to provide it with 18 years of care?

You can put it up for adoption if you don't want it.

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#22 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts
[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]Abortions should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason.Zeviander
This. Every stage of development in utero can have it's own complications and place the life of the mother at risk.

i said for non-mandatory abortions, where no life is at risk
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#23 Zeviander
Member since 2011 • 9503 Posts
What does that have to do with this thread? The TC said outside of mandatory abortions.Pirate700
I give this thread another 10 posts before it devolves into what it always does. All abortions should be unrestricted. I missed the "non-mandatory" part, and provided a good example as to why there should be no restrictions (once you ban one type, it only takes clever legislation and an appeal to emotion and you'll be able to ban them all). I will pose this question again, and more generally. Would anyone who supports a ban on abortion be willing to pay to support the unwanted children? Whether in foster care or otherwise? Until they are old enough to make their own way in life?
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#24 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts

what about 2 hours before projected birth?

should you be able to abort while experiencing the first signs of labour kick in? 

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#25 KiIIyou
Member since 2006 • 27204 Posts
Nuffiin after when they can live outside on their own.
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#26 Zeviander
Member since 2011 • 9503 Posts
You can put it up for adoption if you don't want it.Pirate700
And how many children go unadopted?
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#27 Pirate700
Member since 2008 • 46465 Posts

[QUOTE="Pirate700"]What does that have to do with this thread? The TC said outside of mandatory abortions.Zeviander
I will pose this question again, and more generally. Would anyone who supports a ban on abortion be willing to pay to support the unwanted children? Whether in foster care or otherwise? Until they are old enough to make their own way in life?

I answered that already...

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#28 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts
[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]Abortions should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason.BossPerson
lol, 2 days before projected birth? you make liberals look bad

The woman has the right to terminate the pregnancy at any point because it's an exercise of bodily autonomy. I don't agree with arbitrary restrictions on abortion. That's a position I'd expect many social liberals to have, but I guess I'm wrong.
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#29 Pirate700
Member since 2008 • 46465 Posts

[QUOTE="Pirate700"]You can put it up for adoption if you don't want it.Zeviander
And how many children go unadopted?

That's irrelevant. They aren't dead and have a life.

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#30 Pirate700
Member since 2008 • 46465 Posts

[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]Abortions should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason.ghoklebutter
lol, 2 days before projected birth? you make liberals look bad

The woman has the right to terminate the pregnancy at any point because it's an exercise of bodily autonomy. I don't agree with arbitrary restrictions on abortion. That's a position I'd expect many social liberals to have, but I guess I'm wrong.

I don't think you'll find many social liberals who think the baby should be allowed to be aborted just days before the expected delivery.

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#31 Zeviander
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That's irrelevant. They aren't dead and have a life.Pirate700
And you are avoiding answering the tough question here. Thousands of children go unadopted every year and get placed in the sub-standard foster care system where they are exposed to an inordinate number of physical and psychological abuses. Which, by extension, makes them an even larger burden on society when they become adults.
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#32 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts
(once you ban one type, it only takes clever legislation and an appeal to emotion and you'll be able to ban them all). Zeviander
Exactly.
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#33 DrTrafalgarLaw
Member since 2011 • 4487 Posts
[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]Abortions should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason.ghoklebutter
lol, 2 days before projected birth? you make liberals look bad

The woman has the right to terminate the pregnancy at any point because it's an exercise of bodily autonomy. I don't agree with arbitrary restrictions on abortion. That's a position I'd expect many social liberals to have, but I guess I'm wrong.

While doctors pull out all the stops to save a 22 week old preterm born infant...you want to abort a baby 2 days before delivery? I...can't even. I dare you to find a doctor that aborts a baby 2 days before delivery. Your views on autonomy don't mean sh*t if it's about fully developed infants that did not even get to see their own mother...
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#34 lostrib
Member since 2009 • 49999 Posts

[QUOTE="Pirate700"]That's irrelevant. They aren't dead and have a life.Zeviander
And you are avoiding answering the tough question here. Thousands of children go unadopted every year and get placed in the sub-standard foster care system where they are exposed to an inordinate number of physical and psychological abuses. Which, by extension, makes them an even larger burden on society when they become adults.

Source

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#35 deactivated-5e9044657a310
Member since 2005 • 8136 Posts

[QUOTE="Nuck81"]Pregnancy is INCREDIBLY easy to avoid.DrTrafalgarLaw

A lot can happen. The woman can forget to take her contraceptives. The condom can leak. It can be as a result of rape. You can be drunk while having coitus. Anything can happen. Legally, 24 weeks is the limit at which abortion still can take place. Unless there is a medical indication, an abortion after 24 weeks of gestation is forbidden by law.

You obviously do not even have carnal knowledge about women, as women only find out they're pregnant usually after 2 weeks of having sex. 72 hours is ridicilous.
Pregnancy is easy to avoid -use contraceptives or no sex at all- but I'm sure you understand the latter is not very feasible in this day of age. The former does not guarantue a 100% non-pregnancy rate. In the case a pregnancy DOES slip through, abortion can be a solution.

But trust me, abortion can lead to very emotional moments and it's not very pleasant thing to do. You're making it sound like every woman is lining up to get their child aborted.

I've been having sex longer than you've been alive junior. Every "slip up" you mentioned is INCREDIBLY easy to avoid. Unless you're just a moron.
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#36 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]Abortions should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason.lostrib

So at 9 months?

At any time before the pregnancy ends. Once the child is out of the womb, killing it is murder without a doubt.
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#37 Pirate700
Member since 2008 • 46465 Posts

[QUOTE="Zeviander"](once you ban one type, it only takes clever legislation and an appeal to emotion and you'll be able to ban them all). ghoklebutter
Exactly.

Something tells me if I said this same thing about Guns, you'd say I was nuts. I don't think setting some line or limits is a bad thing...for almost anything.

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#38 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts
[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]lol, 2 days before projected birth? you make liberals look badDrTrafalgarLaw
The woman has the right to terminate the pregnancy at any point because it's an exercise of bodily autonomy. I don't agree with arbitrary restrictions on abortion. That's a position I'd expect many social liberals to have, but I guess I'm wrong.

While doctors pull out all the stops to save a 22 week old preterm born infant...you want to abort a baby 2 days before delivery? I...can't even. I dare you to find a doctor that aborts a baby 2 days before delivery. Your views on autonomy don't mean sh*t if it's about fully developed infants that did not even get to see their own mother...

Tell me, why are you pro-choice?
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lostrib

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#39 lostrib
Member since 2009 • 49999 Posts

[QUOTE="lostrib"]

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]Abortions should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason.ghoklebutter

So at 9 months?

At any time before the pregnancy ends. Once the child is out of the womb, killing it is murder without a doubt.

At 9 months it can probably live on its own, couldnt it just be removed from its mother (alive) and given up as a ward of the state

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#40 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts
[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="Zeviander"]
[QUOTE="lostrib"]

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]Abortions should be allowed at any stage of pregnancy for any reason.ghoklebutter

So at 9 months?

At any time before the pregnancy ends. Once the child is out of the womb, killing it is murder without a doubt.

you need to lay back a little when it comes to ideologies. the autonomy of the mother is irrelevant if were talking about a "thing" that looks the exact same inside or out of the mother (minus the cord)
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#41 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="lostrib"]

So at 9 months?

lostrib

At any time before the pregnancy ends. Once the child is out of the womb, killing it is murder without a doubt.

At 9 months it can probably live on its own, couldnt it just be removed from its mother (alive) and given up as a ward of the state

Removing it is also the same as abortion. Abortion is first and foremost a termination of pregnancy, after all.
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#42 Zeviander
Member since 2011 • 9503 Posts
Sourcelostrib
I don't doubt you could call any foster care office and get the reports from them. Though, they likely wouldn't admit that the children under their care are suffering any abuse. It is fairly common knowledge that children in foster care are more likely to suffer abuses of all kinds, and the entire program is heavily under-funded because most pro-lifers stop caring once the foetus is born.
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#43 Rich3232
Member since 2012 • 2628 Posts
i'm of the general belief that once the baby has the capacity to live outside of the womb on its own, then that's when abortions should not be allowed.
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#44 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts

you need to lay back a little when it comes to ideologies. the autonomy of the mother is irrelevant if were talking about a "thing" that looks the exact same inside or out of the mother (minus the cord) BossPerson

That's a hasty assumption to make; my position is based on a view of bodily rights, not just ideology.

I simply don't agree that the fetus ever has a right to be in the mother's body against her will.

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#45 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts
i'm of the general belief that once the baby has the capacity to live outside of the womb on its own, then that's when abortions should not be allowed. Rich3232
thats what roe v wade said
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#46 Rich3232
Member since 2012 • 2628 Posts
[QUOTE="Rich3232"]i'm of the general belief that once the baby has the capacity to live outside of the womb on its own, then that's when abortions should not be allowed. BossPerson
thats what roe v wade said

then i follow that judgement, i suppose.
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#47 DrTrafalgarLaw
Member since 2011 • 4487 Posts
[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="DrTrafalgarLaw"][QUOTE="ghoklebutter"] The woman has the right to terminate the pregnancy at any point because it's an exercise of bodily autonomy. I don't agree with arbitrary restrictions on abortion. That's a position I'd expect many social liberals to have, but I guess I'm wrong.

While doctors pull out all the stops to save a 22 week old preterm born infant...you want to abort a baby 2 days before delivery? I...can't even. I dare you to find a doctor that aborts a baby 2 days before delivery. Your views on autonomy don't mean sh*t if it's about fully developed infants that did not even get to see their own mother...

Tell me, why are you pro-choice?

Because a woman has the right to abort a child up to 24 weeks, without the need to specify the reason. It's about autonomy. 24 weeks is a lot of time in which you can think about keeping it or aborting it. After those 24 weeks, doctors and the society included view the child as an individual, as a life. While the mother has the right to decide over her own body, the unborn child has the right to live as well. Don't forget that you are also deciding on the life of an inborn infant that can not make choices on its own.
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#48 BossPerson
Member since 2011 • 9177 Posts

[QUOTE="BossPerson"]you need to lay back a little when it comes to ideologies. the autonomy of the mother is irrelevant if were talking about a "thing" that looks the exact same inside or out of the mother (minus the cord) ghoklebutter

That's a hasty assumption to make; my position is based on a view of bodily rights, not just ideology.

I simply don't agree that the fetus ever has a right to be in the mother's body against her will.

at that point it has nothing to do with "bodily rights" or bodily integrity The baby is about to be born (lets say in a couple days) at that point its simply that the mother doesnt want to be a mother for economic/emotiona/social/etc reasons(a somewhat justifiable position). Could you really look at a 1 day old baby and say you wouldnt mind it being killed (lets call it what it is, im tired of this orwellian political language) 2 days earlier?
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#49 Zeviander
Member since 2011 • 9503 Posts
Something tells me if I said this same thing about Guns, you'd say I was nuts. I don't think setting some line or limits is a bad thing...for almost anything.Pirate700
A law of this nature requires an objective fact. There is no objective fact when "life begins" (outside of conception). It is an arbitrary line drawn in the sand where the person holding the stick "feels comfortable" drawing it. Then, if you wish to start arbitrarily choosing a "line" where abortions should stop due to "the child being able to 'survive' outside the uterus on it's own" begs the question regarding infants and their helplessness without a care giver to feed, change and watch over them. Which further begs the question regarding children, and when they can begin to make their own loving to 'survive on their own'. And then coma patients and vegetables... It's a regressive argument, which is why line-drawing abortion has not made much headway in legislation. This also begs the ultimate question... Why is it any business of our's what a woman does with her body? We, as makes, won't ever have to experience pregnancy, and cannot in any capacity comment upon the emotional and physical hardships the woman faces throughout the *entire* pregnancy.
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ghoklebutter

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#50 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts
[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"]

[QUOTE="BossPerson"]you need to lay back a little when it comes to ideologies. the autonomy of the mother is irrelevant if were talking about a "thing" that looks the exact same inside or out of the mother (minus the cord) BossPerson

That's a hasty assumption to make; my position is based on a view of bodily rights, not just ideology.

I simply don't agree that the fetus ever has a right to be in the mother's body against her will.

at that point it has nothing to do with "bodily rights" or bodily integrity The baby is about to be born (lets say in a couple days) at that point its simply that the mother doesnt want to be a mother for economic/emotiona/social/etc reasons(a somewhat justifiable position). Could you really look at a 1 day old baby and say you wouldnt mind it being killed (lets call it what it is, im tired of this orwellian political language) 2 days earlier?

Orwellian political language? I'm referring to the sole definition of abortion: the termination of a pregnancy. And that doesn't always involve killing. Your argument is the same old pro-life rhetoric I hear all the time, and it's completely without substance. It's just an appeal to emotion. I suggest you and others in this thread read Judith Jarvis Thompson's essay "A Defense of Abortion." Her position is the same as mine.