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Why Star Wars Battlefront 2's Microtransactions Are A Huge Problem

Pay to win?

226 Comments

In the video above, taken from our live show The Lobby, the crew examines the serious problems with Star Wars Battlefront II's loot crate system based on the recent beta. They also discuss comments from the ESRB concerning whether loot boxes are considered gambling and which games, like Overwatch, handle loot boxes well.

Battlefront II's progression system seems almost entirely dependent on loot boxes, which give players a random selection of power-ups, weapons, emotes, and more. However, getting everything you need to get more powerful--even a scope for one weapon--takes an inordinate number of hours if you don't buy extra crates, seemingly forcing players to spend money to win.

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Now Playing: Loot Crates Have Finally Gone Too Far - The Lobby

Star Wars Battlefront II launches on November 17. Though much of the actual game was overshadowed by the glaring microtransaction issues, we were impressed with some of what we played.

The Lobby airs every Wednesday at 11 AM PT. You can watch it live, as well as catch earlier episodes, on GameSpot.com and GameSpot's YouTube and Twitch channels.

Editor's Note: In an blog post the day after this discussion, EA addressed some of the most controversial aspects of the Loot Crate system and what changes will be put into the final game. This video represents our thoughts specifically during the beta. For the most up-to-date info and latest stories on Battlefront II, be sure to check out our game space here.

Got a news tip or want to contact us directly? Email news@gamespot.com

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Insomniak1

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Very good conversation. However, the overuse of the word "like" is incredibly annoying. Being that these people are supposed to be journalists, didn't they take a speech class?? Like, they would like, sound like, smarter or like, something.

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Johnenewt1

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This game focuses too much on PVP. They need an online Co-op mode. Haven't they learned from the huge success of Horde mode in Gears of War or zombies in COD?

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urbanman2004

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F*ck EA is all I have to say.

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Gov1

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https://www.change.org/p/andrew-wilson-remove-the-cancer-of-micro-transactions-from-aaa-budget-games

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electronic_eye

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After reading the article, lots of the comments, and watching the vid., I felt I needed to share my own take on this.

I know DICE felt the biggest mistake they made with the first game was not providing enough end game content, but I for one feel the progression system they used was nearly perfect. I'm still playing, and at rank 72, there's still some things I want to unlock and a lot I could. The only thing I would add is a few more bodies/outfits than the few they included. But to me, there was absolutely no need to nearly overhaul the whole system.

The other point I wanted to make has to do with someone else's comment about EA targeting casuals even more with Battlefront II. I don't know if that's the case but I do know by implementing this stupid random loot system, they've ultimately turned off a lot of their most important audience -- Star Wars fans. And I'm a big one. It doubly hurts because I very rarely play multip. games; they're usually too cut throat for my tastes.

If user RenFairReject's claims that all the pay to win elements have now be removed turn out to be true of the final product, then that will obviously make a lot of people happier. Since nothing official verifying this has been posted online, yet, I can't help feeling really frustrated, let down even.

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cherrys_sandbox

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Loot crates are fucking everywhere now...every game I play has a fucking loot crate problem in it. It's an epidemic that has gone too far it needs to stop, it was a good idea once, but when they are in every game and get worse and worse everyone starts to hate them and people stop playing the games with them. Get rid of the loot crates go back to how games were meant to be and how they were, level up rewards are so much better and achievement rewards as well. loot crates are shit.

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EQBallzz

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@cherrys_sandbox: none of this is surprising, really. This is the logical conclusion of the F2P trend that started years ago. Many people said this wouldn't happen but it was obvious back then when there were actual distinctions between F2P and B2P and sub games. There isn't even a distinction in many cases now or if there is the game just switches mid-stream (looking at you ESO).

People spent so much time parsing what was pay to win or pay for convenience or just cosmetic or whatever but the bottom line is that it's all shit. What fun is it to progress in a game (even when it's not technically pay to win) if you buy the items in a shop instead of getting them through gameplay? Why anyone thought this greed wouldn't evolve into this shit show is beyond me. I was sorta looking forward to this but I won't be buying it because of these loot boxes. I don't think D2 is as bad but I'm already wishing I hadn't invested in that, either. Just sick of giving these greedy, manipulative fucks any money.

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SilentChicken

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I just wish they wouldn't say "like" so much. Vexing.

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Insomniak1

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@SilentChicken: Indeed. I actually just posted something to that effect. It's actually fascinating that their editors don't call that out. It's very distracting. If they want to be taken seriously as journalists, they definitely need to take a remedial speech class.

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deactivated-6793e8ba0e8bf

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LOL, the Taco Bell metaphor was so spot on. Very funny.

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kirkhilles

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I'm a casual adult gamer and here's my take. I've played the Beta and its fun, but anytime there is a multiplayer element then chances are its going to be unfair. Either you are going to have people cheating, people who spend 12+ hours a day upgrading or people that buy their way to the top. That's just the way it is. I see people that have 12+ hours to spend gaming (like college students) with an unfair advantage to me anyway.

So, there's only 2 real questions for me. 1) Is there a way I can play it, not die every 10 seconds and have fun. 2) Will the Single Player campaign be good.

We'll see. I'll wait until the game is on sale for 50%+ off the original price anyway, so I'll re-evaluate it then. I find that single player games are far more to my taste as dying continuously and waiting for new matchups gets pretty old pretty quick.

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flatovercrest

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@kirkhilles: the problem isn't them having more experience and it being "unfair", what's unfair is that they shoehorn rpg like progression systems into MP FPS shooters and so if you don't start playing day one you quickly get left behind due to a cumulative effect. Their better equipment options, their bether map knowledge and their extra skill from practice.

Some of those are just life, but the game can still feel fun and exciting even if half the players are better then you, just not when you feel like a naked newb who has zero equipment options.

Pubg handles this much better. All loot items are cosmetic only and every game everyone starts out on the same playing field. Sure your going to face people who know the map, and can loot and aim and shoot faster and better then you, but it still feels "fair". You still feel like you have a chance (you can be sneakier or clever for example, something us old people are often pretty good at!).

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ChrisAnetkaC

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@kirkhilles: You and the others + 1 here. I do feel the same way. I sometimes load up "Chivalry: Medieval Warfare" when I happen to have Live Gold active and join up with a random game. Everyone there, kids obviously, had sank hundreds of hours into it and leveled up so high they're practically invincible. I'm out of there before I can lift the sword. So what do I do? I spawn as an archer and shoot some arrows at them and then run like hell when they spot me. The chase doesn't last long but it's hilarious. You can't get a laugh like that in a single player game which is what I do almost exclusively. If I do any multiplayer on the console it's usually a quick visit to "Battlefield Bad Company 2" or "Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare".

@Bobloblaw: By "bf1" you mean B1942? What a game. And "Battlefield 2". I still can't get enough of those after all those years.

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aj87

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@kirkhilles: Finally someone like me. Multiplayer games are the worst, and to add to what you said:

- There is the people who actually take their time to write a message just to offend you;

- Connection problems that ends the match and, in some games, it counts like you abandoned the match and get a penalty (**** this, seriously);

- Unjust matches where you are against high level players and you just get owned;

- In one game, but Im sure it has others, when the other player was about to lose, he leaves the game and it doesnt count as a victory for me, cause the match ends for not having another player and thats it (absolutely hated this);

And more. I dont know how people think this is "fun", but definitely it isnt for me. Single player all the way.

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Bobloblaw

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Edited By Bobloblaw

@kirkhilles: in the end bf2 has a target player base of casuals unlike other shooters. I suspect they know that most of us don't have the hours to grind so they stick in a pay wall so we can compete with the kiddos. Truth is, we just want the original bf1 and 2. 1 or 2 players and a ton of comp enemies to kill.

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flatovercrest

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@bobloblaw: but do any of us really want to "grind" through hours of boring parts to get to the actual game? What's so wrong with starting us off with all of the weapon and equipment options from the beginning?

It's like buying a box of legos and then when you open it you find another box holding 3/4th of the Legos the box advertised but sealed shut. A little tag says to play with the other 1/4th of the Legos for 100 hours first, then open box 2. Or if your impatient you can send lego another 100$ and open the 2nd box right away and start playing with *all* the Legos you *already* bought!!

I mean, think of the arrogance of it? Selling someone tiny pieces of the game they *already* paid for?! It's the ultimate step up past DLC! With dlc they actually needed new content, with this they can just gate the 60$ worth of content you already paid for and then charge you another 100$+ to get it all back! It's evil genius.

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Bobloblaw

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@flatovercrest: nobody wants the grind. The key is that casuals walk away when they feel that it will just be a waste of time because they will lose to kiddos with more time. The beta already showed this. I was tired of getting killed after only a few days. Imagine a month or more. It's why the other modes are so critical and they didn't show us single player has any potential. The pay wall is their attempt to avoid a bf1 walk out.

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flatovercrest

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@bobloblaw: meh EA hasn't gotten me to donate my cash to them in years, BF won't change that.

If you want a fun MP shooter buy pubg, it's half the price and way more fun. Don't even bother with BF for the SP experience, it will be a sad tacked on afterthought without a doubt.

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deactivated-6793e8ba0e8bf

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@kirkhilles: Yea, I really don't have the time to invest into games like I used to. At this point I'm just frag fodder and it's a huge victory for me to last 60 seconds on a single spawn.

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lardladicus

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StarWars BattleFront 2

------------------------

FarmVille Edition

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jay30mcr

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Remember earlier this year when the news emerged that Google had been fined $8.1 billion for manipulating their search results to put their Shopping results first?

They were not fined at all and thats the wrong message to give the reader. They were simply agreeing to pay a tiny portion of their billions and billions in tax evasion in order to keep on doing it.

And to this day they still avoid paying tax and i think most people have a pretty good idea of their annual turnover.

And the reason? Because governments are not powerful enough to do anything to this corporation and it was just a minute settlement of what is already owed.

So if government do not have the power to affect their business who does? Well that leaves the consumer and in the case of the gaming industry if you don't agree with their actions you are the only one who can change it by saving your money and not buying.

Just remember you are actually supporting a publisher when you buy because the developers have already been paid for their work and its very likely they have now been downsized to a smaller team who deal with patches and updates.

By not buying the product you force the Publisher to rehire the development team so they can remove what is preventing people from buying and presto. We have ourselves a real game :)

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flatovercrest

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@jay30mcr: and folks, as pc gamers it's *so* easy to do this! I haven't owned a EA games since BF3, and uninstalled origins. Sadly I foolishly bought ghost recon from ubi, but we can and should put the same pressure on them.

It's not like there is a shortage of amazing games from other publishers out there to play!

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Mercenary848

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Another battlefront game I was excited for, that now I refuse to touch. EA is so greedy

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deactivated-6793e8ba0e8bf

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@Mercenary848: I was excited too. Especially with the single player campaign added back in. Then this stuff started showing up. Too many other games to play to mess with this crap.

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jay30mcr

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Edited By jay30mcr

I am going to assume that Developers do not want what publishers want and that would be the reason why lootcrates and RNG in general is massively buggy.

It's a great way to make the morons in the publishing industry think you've done what they told you to do because how would they know any better? I'll bet none of them are coders. :P

The result is outrage on payments being made and lootcrates not delivered as well as incorrect contents of opened crates.

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Paulf001

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It's EA they want to make money, and by bringing F2P mechanics and progression systems to retail games they can sucker people in to giving them more money. Notice how they said DLC was free now but they are going to charge you for loot boxes. This is just the world we live in now. No longer can we pay one price and get the whole game anymore.

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nurnberg

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The first one wasn't like this. Looks like they ruined this franchise.

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ClunkerSlim

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Edited By ClunkerSlim

I played the beta a lot, enough to have all three card slots unlocked on every class including fighters. An important thing to keep in mind about the beta is that they gifted you an extra 4 weapons in those trooper "starter crates." Basically if you tried a class for a few matches then they unlocked the next gun for you. There's no way to know if those starter crates are going to be part of the full game. If you need roughly 840 scrap for one gun (plus it's two mods) then it's going to take you about 42 crates to get enough scrap to unlock that ONE gun. That's 294 matches of Galactic Assault to unlock one gun. That's nuts. That's 294 matches and you haven't even bought a star card yet.

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Retroike7

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Edited By Retroike7

Quickly losing interest in this game.. I can’t stand progression based loot in competitive multiplayer games.

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ssjmonkeyboy

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Regarding the loot box situation I've seen many defending this and thinking it's ok but I just want people to think about something, I've been working a few things out and the maximum credits earned in a match was 180 credits and the lootboxes were 1100 credits so it's roughly 7 matches in order to gain 1 box now say it's £1 per loot box and someone spends £50 buying them it means I have to do around 350 matches just to catch up and get the 50 boxes myself which is an insane amount of games to do and even at £2 a box it's going to be around 175 matches which for people who have jobs or kids or just don't have the time that's a number few people will get to.

if Star Wars sells a lot which we all know it will it would mean that games like battlefield and titanfall will likely follow and that's something that is very worrying when it comes to online gaming and would mean an end to multiplayer gaming for a lot of people. I don't mind lootboxes if there purely cosmetic but in the case of star wars it's progression based and that's why there has been so many complaining.

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TacticaI

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@ssjmonkeyboy: Ending online MP for a ton of people seems a bit optimistic.

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Pyrosa

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@ssjmonkeyboy: BF1 had loot boxes from day 1, with items you can break down into crafting currency.

Titanfall has a whole series of advanced Mechs for $5 each.

The ship hath sailed.

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ICING

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@Pyrosa: Both games have perfectly functional progression systems and the loot boxes are cosmetic only. I believe the "advanced mechs" are also purely cosmetic. It's not at all the same.

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Edited By ASneakyPoptart

@Pyrosa: Loot boxes in BF1 are cosmetic so your point is moot on that part. I don't know about TItanfall 2 as I've never played it. Loot boxes are fine when it's purely cosmetic. I think most people would agree with that statement. It's when they give you advantages over other players that are only available in loot boxes that people start having issues with it.

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Greyfox-101

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Edited By Greyfox-101

@ssjmonkeyboy: That's why I think there should be a standard imposed that the only things available in pay to gain loot boxes are cosmetics. I think Overwatch does it really well with their system and I've never felt restricted because of it. Even Call of Duty, you're still able to unlock weapons, mods, and abilities, and the paid crates are purely cosmetics.

Battlefront 2's is just oppressive and makes it feel almost pointless to play since you know any progression is left up to chance.

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Pyrosa

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@Greyfox-101: So you would have regulations imposed upon a creative entertainment form... world-wide?

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Greyfox-101

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@Pyrosa: It's not a creative entertainment form. It's a psychological manipulation system akin to slot machines that are integrated into creative entertainment.

http://www.pcgamer.com/behind-the-addictive-psychology-and-seductive-art-of-loot-boxes/

The only reason loot boxes exist is to use that addictive quality of them to acquire more money for the companies. To keep the slot machine comparison, there are house edges in gambling with user payouts vs the house. In the loot box case, there is an infinite house edge, because none of the items in question have any real value, the house arbitrarily sets the value, creates new items, and asks you to generally pay more to have a higher chance at receiving the items with higher assigned value.

Why I think Overwatch works is that you still have the opportunity to enjoy 100% of the game you paid for upfront. With Battlefront 2, it seems like key content affecting gameplay is locked behind the slot mechanism, with the entire progression system purposefully neutered in order to favor taking a roll at boxes, and that's the part that I think needs to have some sort of standardized rules.

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CantonJester

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@Greyfox-101: This is 100% spot-on. The woman in the 'round table discussion' touched on this point too. There's a physiological phenomenon going on here; the reward and pleasure centers of the brain's itch is being scratched, for a price. They get away with it not being classified as gambling according to the ESRB because it's just 'chance', akin to Pokemon cards. Neat trick. They're existing in the gray area, but the effects on the brain are the same.

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Greyfox-101

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Edited By Greyfox-101

The scope thing is ridiculous. You can get a scope for a weapon within the first match or two of most FPSs that have that kidn of customization.

Also: the problem with ESRB's pack of cards comparison is that you buy a pack of cards and get what's inside. With Battlefront 2, you pay $60 to then pay more to get loot boxes. Essentially it would be like paying $60 for the pack of cards, and then when you open it realizing you have to pay more money to actually open the cards inside the pack.

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Phooey442

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RenFairReject Posts so much on here it's hard to imagine he/she isn't getting paid for it. Regardless if they removed this or not. They thought it was a good idea in the first place. Which speaks volumes. Don't buy this game and send a message before this stuff truly gets out of hand.

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TheWatcher000

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Edited By TheWatcher000

@Phooey442:

Definitely a paid poster.

We will find out if he/she is completely full of shit or not on November 17th.

They can put out whatever patch notes they want, whatever claims they want, whatever propaganda they want, and their apologists can astroturf whatever they want all over the internet.

EA has lied, obfuscated, and done so much underhanded nonsense in the past 10 years, that if they told me the sky was blue, I would get a second opinion.

My advice to everyone. Stop listening to the apologist noise, and the defending hysteria.

The final product won't be able to hide the truth. Hold on to your money, read verifiable, objective accounts and reviews that you feel you can trust.

If the product is good, make the investment. If not, Don't.

Really that simple.

2 • 
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RenFairReject

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@Phooey442: I posted a lot of responses because people were basing their opinions on this article which has no factual basis anymore, and hasn't for several days. It annoys me that there isn't a retraction, given that the article itself was released AFTER the fix was made, or at least an update to include the new information.

as for whether or not they thought it might be a good idea, it's entirely possible that they were pressured into putting it in by the publisher, who were told that they tested it, determined that it didn't work, and removed it. and for the rest of the 6 or 7 days it made no further appearance in the beta.

that is the purpose of a beta to determine what works, what doesnt, and fix accordingly. if all companies reacted this way to mechanics that didn't work (by removing them) in the beta we'd be better off.

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ASneakyPoptart

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It makes me very happy that so many websites and YouTubers are focusing on this because it IS a problem. If enough people buy loot boxes because of how DICE/EA set up the progression system, you bet we're going to see other franchises adopt this horrible system. I was actually impressed with the gameplay part of the beta, but I can't get behind this P2W practice. If EA has the balls to infect the Battlefield franchise with this crap, I'll drop the next Battlefield game instantly.

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RenFairReject

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Edited By RenFairReject

why theyre not really: because all of the pay to win aspects of the loot crate system were removed after they got a bad reception from fans. which btw is WHAT A BETA IS FOR.

Damage and health/healing cards are gone. the only thing left are side-grades, which replace existing abilities with other equally powerful ones, quality of life cards that help whenever youre OUT OF COMBAT (such as healing you a little on melee kills, or increasing cooldown speed slightly), parts so you can make the cards/guns you want and cosmetics.

this happened DAYS AGO. where's your update gamespot?

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deactivated-64efdf49333c4

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@renfairreject: Link pls. Did a search and I'm not seeing this mentioned anywhere. Not even at other forums does anyone say it has been removed, even forums updated today.

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RenFairReject

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@Barighm: the patch notes in game on day 2 of the open beta had it listed as one of the fixes. and the cards weren't available in game (even if you had gotten them previously) after day 2

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Foxhound71

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@renfairreject: You wouldn't happen to have a link for this info would ya, or possibly point in the right direction?

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Pyrosa

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Edited By Pyrosa

@Foxhound71: Really?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=star+wars+battlefront+2+beta+patch+notes

Sheesh...

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RenFairReject

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@Foxhound71: mostly I got it from the patch notes they had in the game during the beta, where they specifically mentioned day 5 (2nd day of the open beta) that the damage and health increasing cards were removed from the packs, that the amount of credits you get per match has been increased from 30 (regardless of how well you do) to 100 if you pretty much just exist throughout the match, to 150 or more if you do well.

plus if you went into your inventory and checked, those cards that increased your damage or health were no longer available

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